Budget and pricing: answers from a diamond dealer (page 3 of 4)

It depends on the treatment. Laser drills are very difficult to see with the naked eye, but fracture filling is pretty obvious (to me, at least).

Some treatments (like drill holes) are permanent, whereas others (silicone fillings) are reversible - they can be melted out.

I'd avoid clarity enhanced diamonds. The secondary market (should you ever decide to sell it or trade it in) is a tiny fraction of the natural diamond market. They just don't hold value as well.

First of all, congratulations!

$7,000 is a lot of money, and you can definitely get a gorgeous ring for that. It's definitely better to choose the diamond yourself, and then have a ring made to accompany it. Don't be afraid to custom make a ring - it comes out much better, and it generally doesn't cost any more than a pre-made ring. Actually, it often costs less!

Your first step should be to educate yourself a bit about diamonds. This sub, as well as /r/diamond and /r/diamonds, would be a good place to start.

I have also posted quite a lot of tips for first time ring shoppers, so check my post history!

Good luck!

Consider what the expected future value of the stones will be. In 5 years, you may want to sell the stone (as a trade-in for an upgrade, for example). The natural stone will still hold value. We can debate whether it will be worth $9k or $15k in 5 years; I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know for sure. But I can virtually guarantee that it will be worth something. The synthetic diamond, on the other hand, is worthless the moment you buy it. There is no secondary market for them, and as supply increases (which it is very rapidly doing), the primary market will become cheaper and cheaper. So from a financial standpoint, a synthetic diamond is a pure expense, whereas a natural diamond is an asset.

Not really. There's nothing inherently different from a value perspective about a radiant from any other shape.

You seem to be very focused on the numbers. Nothing wrong with that, but be careful not to lose sight of the big picture. You have to like the stone, first and foremost.

No, I don't know of any tools I can point you to. Buying a diamond is a bit like buying a piece of art - you have to see it, appreciate it, and decide it's worth what it costs. There just isn't a handy formula that reduces it to a number.

Congratulations!

Shopping for an engagement ring can be stressful, but it should also be fun. So, first of all, don't panic!

The good news is that your budget is totally realistic, and you can get really great stones there. You may even be able to spend less, or to go up to 2ct if you make some smart compromises.

Be careful about your assumptions - shopping online is NOT always the best way to get value. I have posted extensively about this - check my post history.

Where are you located?

Contrary to what many others often say here, there IS a resale market for natural diamonds. If you buy a stone well, it shouldn't be too difficult to resell it (though you may take a partial loss if you need to sell quickly). Lab grown diamonds, on the other hand, have NO secondary market. You will get zero, or very close to it, if you try to sell it. After all, why would a diamond company buy your synthetic diamond when they can just grow another themselves?

Many industry professionals believe that as supply of lab grown diamonds grows, their price will continue to decrease, and 10-15 years from now, they may only cost a few dollars per carat. Natural diamonds, on the other hand, have held value for thousands of years. They aren't going away!

Start by seeking out referrals. Ask your friends who have bought fine jewelry where they got it, and if they would recommend the jeweler. Look online (including here on reddit!) for reviews. Try to get a sense of the jeweler's reputation. Then TALK TO HIM. See if you feel comfortable. Is he forthcoming? Honest? Candid? Knowledgeable?

You should be able to think of your jeweler like your accountant or your lawyer; a professional who adds value with his or her expert guidance.

You're paying for the time of the guy who made the one on the shelf, so you're paying for labor no matter what. When you commission a custom ring, you get exactly the design elements and stones that you want, instead of settling for the closest approximation you find. That way you are only paying for the features you care about.

Also, when a jeweler has a ring in stock for a long time, his cost basis goes UP. After all, he invested money to buy that ring, so now that money isn't earning interest in a savings account or whatever. And what if the jeweler borrowed that money to buy the ring in the first place? Money costs money. And that gets built into the price of the ring. When you buy custom, you don't pay that carrying cost.

So, combine elimination of excess features and just in time manufacturing, and you see savings!

That's a really common misconception! I guess "private jeweler" sounds fancy, so people think it must be expensive, but NOT TRUE. I've made engagement rings for clients (including MANY redditors) for $2,000, and for $500,000, and everything in between.

A good private jeweler acts as your advocate in the business. You should think of your jeweler not like a salesman at Best Buy, but like your lawyer or accountant. My job is to offer my clients professional advice, so they can spend their money as effectively as possible.

It depends on the purpose of the appraisal. When I write appraisals, I tend to do them for insurance replacement purposes. So, I usually write them for 20 percent or so over wholesale. That way, if a piece should go missing, it can be replaced even if prices have crept up a bit. But my philosophy on this is pretty unusual. Most people write them at "retail value" which is generally very inflated. In the industry we call them "feel good" appraisals, since they are are meant to make you feel good about the purchase you just made.

It depends on the center stone. With a D color center, you need to use super white side stones (or they won't match, and it will look weird), which cost more. Similarly, the dimensions of the stone dictate how many little diamonds you need, and that all factors into the price.

However, for the sake of rough numbers, I'd say you're between $1,300 and $2,000 or so, depending on details.

As for WG vs Platinum, I actually made a video explaining the differences. Here you go!

https://youtu.be/zOU4ADJob5I

I wouldn't pay without seeing the stone or at least high resolution pictures and videos. Your jeweler isn't giving you such a bargain to justify s leap of faith.

If your gut tells you not to write a check, them don't. Simple as that. There will always be another diamond.

If it gives you confidence, know that I could get you something similar or better for less, any time. So you wouldn't be walking away from a uniquely good deal.

Hi! that's correct. A lot of people falsely equate overpaying (by buying at a high end retail store, for example) with the stone losing value after you buy it. That's not fair.

If a diamond is worth $1, and you buy it for $1, it will retain a value of $1. But if you pay $2 (by buying it at Tiffany!), it was never really worth $2, so you will "lose" that value - because you were paying the extra dollar for the blue box.

The idea of retained value is relevant for a few reasons. First of all, sooner or later, whether it's you or your great-grandchildren, SOMEONE might want to sell the ring, so it's better to buy a stone that has inherent value rather than one that doesn't. You never know what curveballs life will throw at you. But there's also a more immediate and practical reason. A lot of people these days "upgrade" their engagement rings (at an important anniversary, birth of a baby, etc.), and when they do, they want to be able to trade the old ring in towards something bigger and better. For this to happen, the ring has to retain value, and lab grown diamonds don't.

As for 3,000, 5,000, or 7,000 years of diamond history, I'm sure you understand my point. The human race has considered diamonds to have value for a long, long time, and they're not going anywhere.

Sure, glad to.

Some stones come out of the ground with large, obvious inclusions in them. Imperfections that make them very unattractive, and basically unsellable. Some of these inclusions can be "masked" with diamond treatment techniques. These techniques include laser drilling, fracture filling, and others (please google these for lots of info).

These treated stones are much less desirable and valuable than natural stones. Why? For a few reasons. They are now no longer "a product of nature." They have been altered artificially, and occupy an area somewhere between natural and synthetic diamonds. Also, some of these treatments (fracture filling) are reversible, and the diamond can return to its original appearance.

Generally, when you buy a treated diamond, you should buy it at the price the diamond would have been without treatment - i.e. the price of the natural stone it's based on. But people try to sell it for more than that (Of course! Otherwise why bother treating it?!). So that's hard to do.

Also, the market for treated diamonds is MUCH smaller than the market for natural diamonds. It's a tiny fraction of the market. 95%+ of consumers just won't buy a treated stone, so if you ever try to sell one, you have to contend with a difficult value proposition and a very small pool of potential buyers.

Long story short, I'm not a fan of treated diamonds for most circumstances.

Here's a great way to get a real sense of value. Go to a jeweler, show him the stone, and tell him you want ANOTHER one just like it. Tell him you want to make a pair of earrings, and ask him how much would he charge you for a stone EXACTLY LIKE this one. Then, when he quotes you a number, ask him if he'll buy yours for 20% less than that. If he won't, use that number as a reference point and go to another jeweler with that number in mind.

Works every time.

Hmmm... I really can't say from these pictures. Some of them could be diamonds. The best way is to get them tested, and most good jewelers should be able to test them for you. Just go in and say you're looking to verify an inheritance, and they should help you. Don't let them offer you money to buy them just yet - just tell them you need to know a value for purposes of dividing up an estate. Hopefully that will give you some good info.

Good luck!

Well, the bracelet has 2 carats of small diamonds (~0.01 carats each). They are very low color, clarity, and cut. These stones can be bought wholesale for $100/carat or less. So let's say that's $200.

Then you have 15 grams of 10k gold. At today's spot price for gold, that's about $250. So now you're at $450 total.

Of course, there was also labor involved to make the bracelet to begin with, but presumably the piece can't be resold as it is (it's a very outdated style), so that value will be lost when it's melted.

So, you have $450 in value, less the cost of taking the piece apart (which would easily cost $100 to do - you have to pay the jeweler to remove the stones, melt the gold, assay it, etc.). Net value, about $350. And I wouldn't pay $350 either, because in the end, I'm left with 2 carats of diamonds that are of VERY poor quality. What would I do with them? I wouldn't be able to proudly sell them, so I wouldn't be able to sell them at all.

Long story short, if you can get $500 - or $400 for that matter - take it and run!

One thing to consider about lab created diamonds is that no one really knows how they will hold value over time. Experts can differentiate between lab grown and natural, so it can't be passed off as a mined stone. And so far, that haven't been holding much value in resale. There's no way to know whether that will remain the case.

I know you're buying it to get engaged, not to resell it, but I thought I should mention it, just in case.

Very Strong FL is a VERY big problem in an F color stone! No no no! This stone will look dull, milky, and dead. Never mind the price - this is not a good stone to buy at any price. It will not look like a diamond - it will look opaque. I have posted several times on this subject - please check out my post history.

Ask yourself WHY someone is trying to sell a stone like this on eBay of all places, sight unseen. It doesn't make sense!

Feel free to PM me if you like, and I'll try to steer you in the right direction.

I can't speak to its value due to provenance. I'm a jewelry manufacturer, so I look at it and ask, what would it take to duplicate it?

It's 3/4 carat TOTAL, so the center stone is no more than 0.5ct. Then you have 1/4ct of small stones, a few grams of platinum, and labor. I add that up, and don't see anywhere near 8k in value. And from my perspective the fact that it's old doesn't add to its value.

There really isn't any way to tell from these pictures. From this, I can't say if it's really a diamond, or a piece of glass.

I'm not a believer in buying this way to be honest. I think you should have a relationship with your jeweler, and know who stands behind what you are buying. I know you're considering this because it seems like a good deal, but a low price isn't all there is to it. There has to be VALUE there.

Find someone reputable and honest to work with, and go from there. You'll be much better off.

What led you to that ring? What are you looking for?

If you like brown diamonds, I guess it's fine. But if you're asking if you could resell them, no. No you can't. Almost no one will want to buy them. Stones like this are the kind of thing where you buy a large parcel of stones, and are stuck with a few brown ones, so you put them aside. Eventually you have quite a few, you make earrings, and sell them for cheap.

But, if you like the way they look, then who cares? Enjoy them!

A lot of this is good info! I work in large stones all the time, so I have some background on this.

FYI stones like this exist all over the place, not just in museums. Now, if it was flawless, it would be more of a rare item. As it is, it's an unusual stone, to be sure, but not vanishingly rare.

Your thoughts on drilling are exactly right. A drilled stone is worth about 50% less than a hypothetical identical stone that's natural, but could still be worth more than a stone that looked like this one did before it was drilled. With a stone this valuable, it's safe to assume that whoever drilled did the math carefully beforehand, and the drilling added value. Also, FYI, "laser drilled" is the correct term.

The bigger problem than the value here is that drilling the stone dramatically reduces the size of the market for it. Many people buying stones, especially big/expensive stones like this, will be turned off by the treatment. Let's say this is a $200k stone (just for conversation). Anyone spending that kind of money on a stone would also have the capacity to spend $400k and get a natural one, and that's what many buyers prefer to do.

This is not as simple as you might think. While it's true that Israel is a huge export center, it's not open to the public, and unless you have extensive experience trade references and appointments, you're not getting into the Israeli diamond exchange. It is considered the most secure non-military building in the world. And the diamond dealers there aren't interested in selling one stone at a time to end users. They sell large parcels of stones to dealers around the world.

Furthermore, those dealers work on tiny margins. So, you wouldn't be saving as much as you might think by trying to go upstream to the sources in Israel. Your instinct to not pay retail is a good one, but you don't need to go to Israel to find a good wholesale dealer who can work with you, and who will be there to provide service for years ahead.

TL;DR You can't just "go to Israel" to buy a diamond, and there's no need to do that anyway. Just find a dealer you can work with domestically and go from there.